RE: Modern Art, and the Prejudice against Comics
Wow, my modern art rant brought out more replies than any blog posts I’ve ever made! Since a lot of people chipped in, I think it deserves a followup, so I can clear up some misconceptions, and talk some more about the prejudice against comics.
I was very frustrated when I wrote the post, partly due to the recalled experience being brought up again, and also due to me still being quite sick and needing something to ramble about. Because of that, I think I was a bit unclear in my motive. My post wasn’t trying to debate what art is. I don’t believe anyone has the authority to tell someone else what ‘art’ is, because it is so open to interpretation. Also, I was very vague in my wording when describing “Modern Art”, which is quite a general term. I do not know the proper name for the kind of art I was trying to describe is, but I think everyone knew exactly what I was talking about. If there is a more specific term, please let me know. (No sarcastic replies, to this, lol.)
I don’t hate this type of artwork. And I do believe I can enjoy the thoughts behind them sometimes, upon explanation. For example, Jackson Pollock created his infamous splattered canvases as a spiritual outlet to combat his alcoholism. I can understand that. I even find some visual appeal in his artwork. But regardless, it doesn’t speak to me.
But I prefer artwork that gives me SOMETHING to work with in order to make my own explanations, rather than something so baffling you could never hope to understand what the artist’s real meaning was. When I see a movie that really made me think about something, or read a comic that really touched me or made me laugh- I tell my friends about it, so they can experience the art with me. I don’t think the type of modern art I was referring to does this for most people. And if I am wrong- so much the better for the people people who DO get moved by it in that way. I’m sure they are leading far more enriched lives than I am if they are so easily amazed.
I think my biggest qualm with modern art is the elitism that it seems to spawn. As a whole, society looks down on artists. But we are the masters of degrading each other. It may just be my experience (and admittedly, the aforementioned modern art professor didn’t help my opinion here) but the types of artists who create these pee-jars are so hopped up on their own brilliance, they snub anything that isn’t as “subversive” as their own work. In other words, any artwork which appears to have actual craft and an actual message. Also, I have major issues with such artists who will justify anything in the name of their “art”, including killing animals, shooting people, and other “performances” which, under normal circumstances, would get one put in jail or a nuthouse.
In my previous modern art rant, someone brought up the example of symbolism and references to biblical stories/myths in classical art, likening them to the hidden meanings in modern art. I would like to point out a slight difference here. Symbolism, mythology, and religious imagery are all things you can research and recognize in artwork. Classical art is admirable in so many ways- even a completely uneducated person (which most people were, back then) could appreciate the craft and the beauty of it. And for one who recognizes the subtle imagery, classical works become like a puzzle to piece together. Of course, there are some things you might need extra explanation to appreciate- for example, did you know that in Michelangelo’s famous “Creation of Adam”, God and the angels are shaped perfectly into the form of a human brain? You could question this further- was Michelangelo implying that God was the source of all thought and knowledge? Or perhaps- and this would have been admittedly quite ballsy of him, considering the Pope commissioned the piece- was he saying that God was created inside the human brain?
What I think I love most of all about Classical art is the storytelling element, which I keep coming back to. Most religious artwork was (and still is) created with the purpose of education on the stories of that religion, particularly in times and places where the majority of people cannot read or write. Around the world and throughout history, images have been used to tell stories- from Egyptian hieroglyphs to monumental Christian triptychs. Wait a second- using sequential images to tell a story? Thank kinda sounds like… COMICS! Which brings me to my second topic…
The Prejudice against Comics
There are people who say comics are not art, which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous. The people who say that base their opinions on social bias associated with the history of comics and the people who read them. Comic fans are seen as immature geeks who need to get out of their mother’s basement and get a real job. Comic artists aren’t considered “real” artists because the work they produce is targeted at these “losers.” It’s very upsetting, but the fact is that the mainstream Western world still considers comics to be only for children.
Typical comic book geek
When I lived in the US, but also when I lived in Austria, it was not uncommon for people to scoff at my career choice. “That’s cute. When are you going to get a real job?” “Why don’t you do some “real” art instead of stuff for kids?” These are the sorts of comments that one becomes used to hearing. But it never becomes any less frustrating. I think my biggest disappointment came in highschool, when I was in a class called “Theory of Knowledge”, which was required for all students to take. It was basically a philosophy class, and for the most part I really enjoyed it. We had debates and discussions on ethics, and subjective topics such as “What is Art?” For this particular topic we were requested to bring to class something we considered “art.”
I bought a book of Rose of Versailles by Ryoko Ikeda, the world-famous manga which springboarded the shoujo-manga genre in the 70’s. I admire it for the artwork, in which Ryoko Ikeda invented many of the now clichee shoujo graphic conventions, such as “romance bubbles,” dramatic stage lighting, sparkling eyes and tears, and abstract, “emotional” backgrounds used to accentuate drama. I also admire all of her research into the French Revolution, and the time it took her to finish the comic- the entire manga set is thicker than a dictionary- and she did it all on her own. The story had a massive cultural impact, spawning many more “princely girl” series, including the famous “Revolutionary Girl Utena,”, and even went on to become a live-action film and several Takarazuka musicals.
What was my teacher’s reaction? He ridiculed me in front of the class. After all his talk about how art was subjective and impossible to define, he made fun of me for bringing a “comic book,” and made no effort to shut up the rest of the class when they followed his example. I was so hurt and angry, I was unable to formulate a proper defense for my choice. Now, after 5 years of studying all types of comics and art, I feel a little more prepared to defend comics.
Belgium and France are exceptions, I’ve noticed. People here really respect comic artists, particularly in Belgium, where they are extremely proud of their famous Belgian comic artists, such as Herge (Tintin) and Peyo (Smurfs.). Even people I’ve met who say “I don’t really care much about comics” end up having at least five of them in their house. Comics are very deeply infused into the culture here! So, maybe there is some hope for the US, as far as accepting comics goes.
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February 9th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Wow, that teacher is a total dick.
February 9th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Amen!
Well-worded and I agree for the most part. That teacher is a total ninconpoop.
February 9th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
I would just like to say, these have been terribly interesting to read. Thank you for sharing! And I have to agree with the others. Both of these teachers are pretty crummy.
February 9th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
i think with the prejudice of the comic artist is the effect of the US’s view on illustrators. They used to think that anyone who made money off of their art and would be commissioned were not real artists. they would think this of Rockwell (if you know any of his work) just because many of his pieces were for the Saturday Evening Post.
Believe me, I know how difficult it is, especially for me wanting to be a colorist. Many people count that a not being real work.
February 9th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
You had a really bad teacher, and naming names would be good right now, because I don’t ever want to run into him in the future without being able to practice corner kicks in advance.
And I personally think the reason comic books are degraded as art is because the visual medium is used to tell a story rather than present an idea. This puts it on a level with television and movies, both of which can present arresting images, but where the visuals are supposed to be second banana to the story. With more traditional arts, the visual IS the story.
February 9th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
I can’t believe that teacher would do that to you in front of your own class! That is something that NO teacher should do at all. EVER. If anything, a teacher should support you in what you study, no matter how it may see different to the “normal” view of things. If anything, he should have talked to you alone AFTER class if he had anything to gripe about, NOT in front of the class.
But no matter what people say, you should always be proud of the art you do!
February 9th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Thank you so much for this, because it is precisely the argument I find myself making on a regular basis, as an artist, hopeful comic artist, and future educator. I’m half inclined in saving both this blog and the one about modern art to spark discussion in my future art classroom, if you don’t mind. The question “What is art” is one I want my students to think long and hard about, and draw their own conclusions without falling into the trap of being an elitist, or of being a complete fool.
As someone who has loved graphic novels my whole life, I find it absurd to think that there are still people who think making a comic is easy and takes no talent. Comics are HARD, as anyone who has ever attempted to make one knows. It takes time, talent, planning, practice, and patience. Besides, like you point out– the idea behind comics has been around practically since we humans began making art.
Anyway, I’m not saying anything you haven’t already, since I agree 100% with what you’ve said here. Keep doing what you’re doing, and best of luck.
February 9th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
The portrayal of comic book fans in the main media as dorky collectors who would spend millions just to have something in an air tight bag is why comic books have such a bad name.
I think Canada has lots of respect for the comic and animation industry. I’ve only faced small bits of issues from people claiming I am childish but more over I have found nothing less than respect for putting such effort into things.
It may not get called art all the time but it’s always always called a talent.
In the end I get more slack than needed for being a gamer than being a comic artist/animator. People seem to view games as childish waste of time where comics are enjoyment for everyone of any age group, gender, religion or race.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
I really liked reading these posts on predjudice against comics and modern art. Someday I hope to publish my own comic (it will probably be in the Manga style eventhough I’m American). However, I’m sure I’ll have to get a job to pay the bills, so I figured: “Hey, graphic artist, video game character design, freelance…” There are so many possiblilties. That’s why I love art; there are so many different ways you can use it. It allows you to be whatever you want to be, helps you to tell stories in your own way.
I’m proud of you for defending comics and your outlook on art. Thanks. I’ll keep it in mind when I’m ready to tell my parents I’m going to try to publish a comic (when one is finished, anyway)
I can’t believe a teacher would ridicule you like that. Did he even ask your reasoning on why you brought it in?
I want to live in Belgium now…. but then, I’m not too good at learning languages….
Keep at it Yamino! Your a great artist who makes beautiful work! Just remember that your fans will definitely support you no matter what!
February 10th, 2010 at 1:39 am
A required Theory of Knowledge class, eh? A fellow International Baccalaureate student, I presume?
Thanks for fighting the good fight, and remember that you’re not alone.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:46 am
SleepyKiks:
Depends on what part of Canada. Certainly Québec has a fair bit of the French attitude there; Toronto and the surrounding area out towards Kitchener-Waterloo is all right as well. The fact that Toronto has people like Peter Birkemoe, who runs the Beguiling, and who actively works to set up shows with comics creators doesn’t hurt. There’s also the Toronto Comic Arts Festival.
On the other hand, I’d be surprised if that attitude continued at the anywhere near the same level across the prairies.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:03 am
Thank you again for sharing. UGG it can be really frustrating trying to deal with people like your two teachers. Besides being completely rude, that sort of behavior is unprofessional. Even if you don’t agree with a student, mocking them is unacceptable.
Ignore the narrow-minded fools, I say!
I guess I’m lucky that everyone in my life is really supportive and understanding… I either want to go into animation/cartoons or video games after college (still can’t decide which!) and my family and friends love the idea. Those are the things that make me happy, and that’s what I want to do with my life. It’s awesome that you’re working on your dream job Yamino.
February 11th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
I think the term you looked to describe “Modern Art” is “Abstract Art”. It’s a much better fit, I think.
And, to ANYONE who says comics aren’t an art form… Alex Ross would have a word. For those who don’t know, he did the artwork for “Marvels”, a Marvel Comics trade, and “Kingdom Come”, a DC trade. Google him if you’re still curious.
February 11th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
You might point out that Charles Schulz spent close to 50 years drawing comics, and in the process, created several cultural icons.
February 11th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
I must admit I face the whole “If you read comic books you’re a geek” thing from my little sister quite a lot. It gets incredibly irrtating that she immediately thinks that I am a geek because I read comics disregarding the fact that I’m her own brother and she knows me a lot more than most people on this earth. Nope I’m a geek and therefore a child in her eyes. God it’s hard to be a comic fan nowadays and the media doesn’t help by constantly showing comic book fans as overweight nerdy types who are overcritical of everything and completely lacking in any social skills.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:23 am
“I do not know the proper name for the kind of art I was trying to describe is, but I think everyone knew exactly what I was talking about. If there is a more specific term, please let me know. (No sarcastic replies, to this, lol.)”
The first examples that you cite:
“A giant tub of cat litter the size of a kiddy pool,
A dead shark suspended in gel,
A pile of rotted furniture seemingly tossed unthinkingly into a pile,
A series of “charcoal drawings” which were just plain pieces of paper covered completely with black,
A huge room dedicated to scribbles some fool had made with his foot.”
generally fall under the labels “Pop Art” (if the so-called “artist” is well known to the general public), “Folk Art” or “Primitive Art” (if the artist has had no formal training), or “Junk Art”. (For obvious reasons.)
The second example (i.e. the “moldy jar of piss”, and it’s iterations) is popularly called “Shock Art” because, obviously, it’s supposed to shock the sensibilities of the viewer.
Hope this helps.
February 13th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
I agree with you on a lot of it, but I think you actually did get the point of viewing moldy piss… as a previous commenter explained about shock art… you just didn’t realize it at the time. Would be very interesting to revisit the subject with your idiot teacher about how you did get the point… the art is meant to shock your sensibilities. However, I wish your teachers would understand the vary thing they preach… art is subjective. Comics are considered art. I wonder what your teacher would say about political cartoons… those are clearly not meant for children.
February 14th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Isn’t the first teacher out there to go out and say to an expansive child “Such and such isn’t really art”.
Well then I suppose Piccaso or Da Vinci really isn’t art either. You call reproducing people’s faces art? They’re just faces!/sarcasm
Or painting a nude model or a still-life bowl of fruit isn’t art either. You’re just painting what you see for no discernable reason/more sarcasm
In other words, teachers like these have probably inhibited countless artists that might have otherwise become famous if they hadn’t had their dreams crushed early on, and thus turn off the more artistic side to their brains and sadly settle into a career in a cubicle in those large corporate buildings.
These teachers think they “know” what art is and that their view is the only one that matters. Screw that. If it were true, all art would be totally alike anyways and there’d be no depth to the field. The allure of art is not only diversity, it is endless expression and the ability of the human mind to endlessly breach new areas where we don’t otherwise go.
February 14th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
@Mandy: Teachers like this and worse do exist. I’ve had two teachers as a kid who set out to make my life miserable and I’m not talking from the POV of a spoiled kid whose teacher exercised reasonable discipline restraint. I’m so sorely tempted to name names I can’t see straight.
My fourth grade teacher in Utah in particular, as I was not only subject to her humiliating abuse but I witnessed her slapping other students in the face and she let the other students bully me and the one time I ever dared ask her for help against their torment, she stood me in front of the class and basically told me I was worthless and would amount to nothing.
And by the way, I was the top student in the class grades-wise. When my parents called her in a fury she told them the same thing. That I wasn’t worth anything.
It was nearly twenty years ago now and she was this little old thing with scoliosis who also cried in class and tried to make us feel sorry for her, so she’s probably dead by now and I hope she’s burning in Hell. She put scars on a ten year old child that have lasted the rest of her life. If it hadn’t been for my fifth grade teacher in Idaho who sensed what was wrong and saved me (as I was on the edge of suicide) I’d not be here right now.
Teachers can be this cruel. The fifth grade teacher in question was truly an angel in disguise.
February 15th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
I quite agree with you, but on another medium. I consider video games to be art. A blending of the visual and audio mediums, and interactive to boot.
But, people enjoy putting others down to make themselves seem bigger. To shake up a quote from Aesop: “People will often applaud the same old thing and scorn new thought”
And honestly, you bring up Manga? Manga and Anime is an odd thing, as you can go from something you would give a seven year old child to something an adult would sit down and read. That is art as well, but since it’s cartoon, heaven forbid a mature adult would watch or read that, Simpsons aside.
In short, I hate people because of things like this.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
I was fortunate enough to spend a little more than a year living in Belgium way back in the mid 80’s. Talk about immersion in art! The churches with their religious paintings and sculptures, the museums with their collections, Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, and the comics everywhere.
I still have stacks of Suske en Wiske, Asterix, Storm, and others. I told people I bought them to help me learn Dutch (or Flemish, if you prefer), but the fact is, I just loved reading them.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
http://www.abominable.cc/2008/06/11/false-prophet/
I don’t think anyone can look at something like this and say that it’s not art. Webcomics are a medium of expression for the common person’s uncommon thoughts, many of which can be astounding, but elusive. People try to share the beauty of these gems of their imagination to everyone willing to appreciate them, and this sharing encompasses many forms: storytelling, music, performance, and visual art. The style of the art is simply an aspect of the individual’s personality, and is sometimes secondary to the idea that is being conveyed. People who deride someone’s style of art are deriding the artists themselves, and also all those who use that style to spread their messages. Thus, its not just prejudice against webcomics, its prejudice against the people who write webcomics. Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of form, just like art is art. People need to open their minds a little.
February 21st, 2010 at 8:33 pm
That reminds me the story of a now known scientist who realised in school that the explanation about how planes fly the teacher was teaching was wrong. He insisted that this was not right and when the teacher did not paid attention he made some paper planes to demonstrate. He was punished for making paper planes in classroom. Of course he was right but the teacher ridiculed and punished him and never even paid attention to what he was trying to say.
School is not a good place to think different.
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:43 am
reading both rants of yours, I immediately thought of bill watterson and his opinions of comics as art. Great minds think alike, I suppose….